Recommendations, Records, Collections, etc.
General Metal Discussions » Issue with Modern Metal
Motorised wrote:Razorwyre is quite good

If you're anywhere near Sydney/Canberra/Melbourne/Adelaide, they're making their 1st visit to Aussie in November:

http://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/h ... 8169_n.jpg
https://www.facebook.com/events/411668605609073/
User avatar
New Zealand (nz) Male YouTube  
Status:Offline
Name: Paul
Rank: Stronger Than Evil
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 119

Reputation: 352
Topics Solved: 4


Unfortunately I'm not, I'm on the west coast. The west coast always gets the raw deal when it comes to bands. Thank you for the thought though!

Has anyone managed to tape any of their (Razorwyre) shows?
User avatar
Australia (au) Male
Status:Offline
Name: Axle
Rank: Stronger Than Evil
Posts: 170

Reputation: 3755
Topics Solved: 0


Motorised wrote:For me, these genres have no melody, the vocal isn't clear. They take their influences from hardcore punk & groove metal. I can't stand either because for me there is no melody. Half of the album "Cowboys From Hell" was brilliant.

If Plácido Domingo and Luciano Pavarotti sung and got a guitar virtuoso with a brilliant drummer I'd be in heaven.

I'm not too phased about what is popular, what is flooded into the market but it's depressing that hardcore punk and groove metal influenced so many bands. I'd be more than happy with Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath carbon copies. I personally cannot hear any melody in the music that is why I said that. I do not hate the genre nor do I hate the people that listen to it, I just think it made an adverse affect on the music industry.

Of course flooding of particular genres metal or not, is not a new concept. The record companies have caused a lot of problems I must admit. They produced many bands that sounded the same and just flooded the people with crap which is how we got Poison and other pop metal groups, which became the demise of heavy metal in the mainstream realms. I hope that younger people look back the better bands too.
Unfortunately that is the case and unless we are exposed to other material then most people will listen to mainstream popular rubbish. I must admit some of Bullet For My Valentine's riffing and soloing is quite good but nothing superior.

I'm just saddened that there is a lot of crap out there and talented bands got pushed aside. Tokyo Blade is one that always comes to mind, their first album is a masterpiece.


Just to be clear, i'm no fan of the 'groove-metal' or 'core' type bands, it doesn't move me in any way. i'm just playing devil's advocate.
The new fans will always want new bands/styles to call their own and to distinguish themselves from the previous generation.
In my day, i remember getting a hard time from older Metal heads for liking Motorhead or Tank, because those bands were perceived as 'just a bloody racket', by many of those who'd grown up on Sabbath, Zep & Budgie.
Same again in the early days of the Thrash scene. The first time i saw Metallica was on the "Master Of Puppets" tour (with Anthrax supporting), the audience was 80% punks who'd embraced the bands because of their speed and power, whilst many older Metallers just didn't get it at all.
You are right about there being a lot of crap out there, and great bands who slip through the cracks, but sadly that too has always been the case.
There is still a lot of great music being made by young bands though, you just need to know where to look.
Try some of these newer acts for size;

VEKTOR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUEN6Hkrc9M

CORSAIR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoSyZWcHY-w

OWL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHgl44HOAGU

MIDNIGHT CHASER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt0VLJS4IM4

VISIGOTH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txaJ9X07PKY

MOON CURSE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf1sLzGPjAQ

ASSEMBLY AT DUSK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hat9tvkoFJE

WITCHTOWER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK3QiDGpkmg
User avatar
Bringer of Steel
United Kingdom (uk) Male 
Status:Offline
Rank: Bringer of Steel
Location: Ecosse
Posts: 1500

Reputation: 30676
Topics Solved: 92


riptorn wrote:Just to be clear, i'm no fan of the 'groove-metal' or 'core' type bands, it doesn't move me in any way. i'm just playing devil's advocate.
The new fans will always want new bands/styles to call their own and to distinguish themselves from the previous generation.
In my day, i remember getting a hard time from older Metal heads for liking Motorhead or Tank, because those bands were perceived as 'just a bloody racket', by many of those who'd grown up on Sabbath, Zep & Budgie.
Same again in the early days of the Thrash scene. The first time i saw Metallica was on the "Master Of Puppets" tour (with Anthrax supporting), the audience was 80% punks who'd embraced the bands because of their speed and power, whilst many older Metallers just didn't get it at all.
You are right about there being a lot of crap out there, and great bands who slip through the cracks, but sadly that too has always been the case.
There is still a lot of great music being made by young bands though, you just need to know where to look.
Try some of these newer acts for size;

VEKTOR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUEN6Hkrc9M

CORSAIR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoSyZWcHY-w

OWL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHgl44HOAGU

MIDNIGHT CHASER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt0VLJS4IM4

VISIGOTH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txaJ9X07PKY

MOON CURSE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf1sLzGPjAQ

ASSEMBLY AT DUSK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hat9tvkoFJE

WITCHTOWER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK3QiDGpkmg


Haha, that's fine, it's always good to view both sides. That is very true, every generation wants to be different but they're pretty much all the same. I'm not phased to be honest, I actually prefer 1980s material as a whole to any other period.
Really? Motörhead, Tank, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin and Budgie are awesome! I guess it was because the former were a lot heavier than the latter.
I had no idea that was the case, I thought the headbangers would have loved them as Motörhead, Tank, Iron Maiden were pretty heavy but I guess, again, Metallica were heavier and faster than anyone else at the time (excluding Slayer, Megadeth and Anthrax). I'm surprised the punks would have liked it as it was heavier than punk rock.
I think you're right there, I don't know if there are a lot of great bands now. Back then thrash, speed, power, groove, NWOBHM and hardcore punk were all explored they were new and something really different. What is the next level? I do like DragonForce.
I'm not sure if it is the nostalgia behind it all.

I'm listening to these in chronological order (and thank you for the taking the time for these suggestions):

Vektor - "Outer Isolation" - the vocals hurt my ears but the instrumentation is good.

Corsair - "Of Kings and Cowards" - vocally a lot better but I feel there is something missing. The solo was good though.

Owl - "Feaster From The Stars" - wasn't too bad but I felt it sort of dragged on.

Midnight Chaser - "Rough and Tough" - now this is the sound and style that I like. I was expecting more of a shredding solo though. The lead kicked in at 4:09 which is what I look for. On the side I found a video "Katana - Heart of Tokyo" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oICvpXQmT4 Now that is what I call heavy metal (metal2) The vocals and solo are awesome.

Visigoth - "Iron Brotherhood" - the song isn't my thing but I downloaded their album "Final Spell" and I quite like the song "Creature of Desire".

Moon Curse - "Black Elk" - I didn't get much of a kick out of it. Instrumentally it's not bad.

Assembly At Dusk ~ "Before This City is Aflame" - I really tried but I couldn't get into it.

Witchtower - "Return to the Witches' Castle (Full EP)" - I like it.

I like Steel Panther (USA) and ReinXeed (Sweden). The only thing I don't like Steel Panther are the extreme sexual ideas. I'm anti-pornography. I do like Death To All But Metal but the rest of the songs I have to skip massive parts of. I also like Black Majesty. For some unknown reason I love the album "Hatebreeder" by Children of Bodom. Instrumentally it is everything I love in an album/song. It's like Power/Thrash/Speed/NWOBHM influences all mixed into one. Somehow I like the vocals, I have never been able to figure it out though. There next album, I don't mind a couple of songs, I like their cover album but apart from that I don't like anything else, excluding the live material from those two albums on "Chaos Ridden Years: Stockholm Knockout Live" and "Tokyo Warhearts". I cannot read the lyrics as death and black metal lyrics disturb me too much.

I have been trying to listen to Jason Newsted's new release "Heavy Metal Music" by Newsted but I just can't get into it. I thought it would be something excellent compared to what Metallica has been releasing for the past twenty years but sadly it isn't.
User avatar
Australia (au) Male
Status:Offline
Name: Axle
Rank: Stronger Than Evil
Posts: 170

Reputation: 3755
Topics Solved: 0


Motorised wrote:Metallica were heavier and faster than anyone else at the time (excluding Slayer, Megadeth and Anthrax).
I'm surprised the punks would have liked it as it was heavier than punk rock.
I think you're right there, I don't know if there are a lot of great bands now. Back then thrash, speed, power, groove, NWOBHM and hardcore punk were all explored they were new and something really different. What is the next level? I do like DragonForce.
I'm not sure if it is the nostalgia behind it all.

I'm listening to these in chronological order (and thank you for the taking the time for these suggestions):

Vektor - "Outer Isolation" - the vocals hurt my ears but the instrumentation is good.

Corsair - "Of Kings and Cowards" - vocally a lot better but I feel there is something missing. The solo was good though.

Owl - "Feaster From The Stars" - wasn't too bad but I felt it sort of dragged on.

Midnight Chaser - "Rough and Tough" - now this is the sound and style that I like. I was expecting more of a shredding solo though. The lead kicked in at 4:09 which is what I look for. On the side I found a video "Katana - Heart of Tokyo" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oICvpXQmT4 Now that is what I call heavy metal (metal2) The vocals and solo are awesome.

Visigoth - "Iron Brotherhood" - the song isn't my thing but I downloaded their album "Final Spell" and I quite like the song "Creature of Desire".

Moon Curse - "Black Elk" - I didn't get much of a kick out of it. Instrumentally it's not bad.

Assembly At Dusk ~ "Before This City is Aflame" - I really tried but I couldn't get into it.

Witchtower - "Return to the Witches' Castle (Full EP)" - I like it.

I like Steel Panther (USA) and ReinXeed (Sweden). The only thing I don't like Steel Panther are the extreme sexual ideas. I'm anti-pornography. I do like Death To All But Metal but the rest of the songs I have to skip massive parts of. I also like Black Majesty. For some unknown reason I love the album "Hatebreeder" by Children of Bodom. Instrumentally it is everything I love in an album/song. It's like Power/Thrash/Speed/NWOBHM influences all mixed into one. Somehow I like the vocals, I have never been able to figure it out though. There next album, I don't mind a couple of songs, I like their cover album but apart from that I don't like anything else, excluding the live material from those two albums on "Chaos Ridden Years: Stockholm Knockout Live" and "Tokyo Warhearts". I cannot read the lyrics as death and black metal lyrics disturb me too much.

I have been trying to listen to Jason Newsted's new release "Heavy Metal Music" by Newsted but I just can't get into it. I thought it would be something excellent compared to what Metallica has been releasing for the past twenty years but sadly it isn't.


Phew, lots to respond to there.
Regarding the punks liking Metallica ( & Thrash in general) in the 80's, there were a lot of really brutal and fast punk bands back then, (Discharge, GBH, Misfits etc) and many who blurred the line between punk and metal completely like The Blood, Sacrilege, early Onslaught, Broken Bones, D.R.I. etc.
I think a lot of punks embraced the Thrash scene because musically (and often lyrically) there was a lot of common ground. The Thrashers certainly took a lot of inspiration from the punk and hardcore scenes too, just look at the cover versions they did and the band t-shirts they wore back then.
I'm glad you liked at least a few of my band suggestions, most of the bands i mentioned only have demos or self-financed releases at the moment, so bear that in mind when assessing them. Owl were all in their teens when they recorded 'Feaster From The Stars'!
As you said you enjoyed the Witchtower track, here's a band-sanctioned link to download their demo EP for free:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/me93q ... Castle.rar
Now that i have a better idea of what style of Metal you're into i'd recommend EDGUY if you haven't heard them.
Here's their 2006 'Rocket Ride' album:
http://youtu.be/wWULxZcWdAw?t=8m1s
They have that slightly cheesy melodic Euro-Metal 'widdly' window-dressing like Helloween or C.O.B. or Dragonforce, but they have undeniably great memorable songs under all the bluster too. The singer's got a really strong, melodic and versatile voice too.
See what you think.
I think they've got maybe 10 or so albums out.
Were you joking with your comments about Steel Panther's lyrical content?
You do know they're a spoof/joke band right?
As they're ripping the piss out of the 80's hair metal scene, (and kind of paying tribute to it at the same time), all the OTT sexual stuff in the lyrics is meant to be ridiculous and humourous.
They all cut their teeth in cover bands like Atomic Punks and Metal Shop, before becoming Metal Skool which introduced their own songs and all the humourous elements. They released an album about 10 years ago as Metal Skool called 'Hole Patrol', before changing their name to Steel Panther.
Some of their stuff is reasonably amusing if you only hear it once or twice, but beyond that i can't really understand the appeal. The 'joke' wears thin pretty quick.
I was, like you, disappointed by Newsted's new stuff, the only song that really did 'it' for me was 'Godsnake' which has a kinda Trouble style vibe to it.
More material like that and he might be on to something, but the EP and album fall short to my ears.
Sorry i've prattled on for ages again, it always surprises me to see how wide the conversation, opinion and feelings can be about the wonderful world of Metal, so i tend to get carried away.
User avatar
Bringer of Steel
United Kingdom (uk) Male 
Status:Offline
Rank: Bringer of Steel
Location: Ecosse
Posts: 1500

Reputation: 30676
Topics Solved: 92


riptorn wrote:Phew, lots to respond to there.
Regarding the punks liking Metallica ( & Thrash in general) in the 80's, there were a lot of really brutal and fast punk bands back then, (Discharge, GBH, Misfits etc) and many who blurred the line between punk and metal completely like The Blood, Sacrilege, early Onslaught, Broken Bones, D.R.I. etc.
I think a lot of punks embraced the Thrash scene because musically (and often lyrically) there was a lot of common ground. The Thrashers certainly took a lot of inspiration from the punk and hardcore scenes too, just look at the cover versions they did and the band t-shirts they wore back then.
I'm glad you liked at least a few of my band suggestions, most of the bands i mentioned only have demos or self-financed releases at the moment, so bear that in mind when assessing them. Owl were all in their teens when they recorded 'Feaster From The Stars'!
As you said you enjoyed the Witchtower track, here's a band-sanctioned link to download their demo EP for free:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/me93q ... Castle.rar
Now that i have a better idea of what style of Metal you're into i'd recommend EDGUY if you haven't heard them.
Here's their 2006 'Rocket Ride' album:
http://youtu.be/wWULxZcWdAw?t=8m1s
They have that slightly cheesy melodic Euro-Metal 'widdly' window-dressing like Helloween or C.O.B. or Dragonforce, but they have undeniably great memorable songs under all the bluster too. The singer's got a really strong, melodic and versatile voice too.
See what you think.
I think they've got maybe 10 or so albums out.
Were you joking with your comments about Steel Panther's lyrical content?
You do know they're a spoof/joke band right?
As they're ripping the piss out of the 80's hair metal scene, (and kind of paying tribute to it at the same time), all the OTT sexual stuff in the lyrics is meant to be ridiculous and humourous.
They all cut their teeth in cover bands like Atomic Punks and Metal Shop, before becoming Metal Skool which introduced their own songs and all the humourous elements. They released an album about 10 years ago as Metal Skool called 'Hole Patrol', before changing their name to Steel Panther.
Some of their stuff is reasonably amusing if you only hear it once or twice, but beyond that i can't really understand the appeal. The 'joke' wears thin pretty quick.
I was, like you, disappointed by Newsted's new stuff, the only song that really did 'it' for me was 'Godsnake' which has a kinda Trouble style vibe to it.
More material like that and he might be on to something, but the EP and album fall short to my ears.
Sorry i've prattled on for ages again, it always surprises me to see how wide the conversation, opinion and feelings can be about the wonderful world of Metal, so i tend to get carried away.


Sigh, I responded to this entire message and I have to rewrite it as for some reason this website likes to sign me out after about ten to twenty minutes without me clicking on anything so I apologise if I miss anything the second time round. Damn thing!

Haha, sorry I can ramble on a bit!
I'll have to have a listen to those bands that you mentioned. I have heard Metallica's version of "Free Speech For The Dumb" but I didn't care for the original version that much. I heard the original of "More I See" and they did more of a hard rock solo which was pretty cool.
I thought thrash wouldn't have been something punks enjoyed because it had a lot of 'heavy metal' in it as well. I know that thrash metal has a lot of inspiration from punk and NWOBHM. I remember hearing there was/is a lot of separation between different genres of music.
I noticed that a few of them were demos. I'll have to listen to them again. Thank you :) I downloaded Witchtower's EP.
I listened to a few songs from the EDGUY's 'Rocket Ride' album and it's awesome! I like what you call "slightly cheesy melodic Euro-Metal 'widdly' window-dressing". I like Helloween, Children of Bodom (prior to 2003) and DragonForce :P
I'll have a listen to their other albums.
No, really, I was being serious about Steel Panther's lyrical content. I do know that they are a comedy hard rock/heavy metal act.
I know they are taking the mickey out of and paying a tribute to the 80's hair/glam metal scene. They are a great band, I just find some of the lyrics a bit too explicit for my liking, I'm not religious or anything, I just don't like highly sexual material unless it can be viewed in an ambiguous/innuendo manner . Some of it is humourous but others are not. I had a listen to Atomic Punks' cover of "Hot for Teacher" which is pretty cool.
I enjoy listening to:
-Death To All But Metal
-Asian Hooker ("Do some coke and get a tan, I'm fuckin' gonna be the man" and solo)
-Eyes Of A Panther (I listen to it and remove the sexual innuendos)
Justin Hawkins makes an appearance on "Party All Day" but there is about two lines in that song that ruin it for me from memory.
I like to listen to them more than once as they are really talented and the vocalist has some high range notes.
I bought the 'Newsted' EP without knowing anything about it and thought "this is going to be awesome" and I was disappointed. I thought he/they would have done something great. I listened to the LP "Heavy Metal Music" online and I didn't like it. I do like Newsted's live covers of Metallica songs. Newsted plays the songs better than Metallica, Metallica is limited for me mainly for the drumming. They used to be a top notch band back in the 1980s. I hope Newsted's next release will be superior to these first two.
Haha, don't be sorry, I don't mind! I tend to get carried away and ramble on too, I can do it for hours haha.
User avatar
Australia (au) Male
Status:Offline
Name: Axle
Rank: Stronger Than Evil
Posts: 170

Reputation: 3755
Topics Solved: 0


Motorised wrote:I'll have to have a listen to those bands that you mentioned. I have heard Metallica's version of "Free Speech For The Dumb" but I didn't care for the original version that much. I heard the original of "More I See" and they did more of a hard rock solo which was pretty cool.
I thought thrash wouldn't have been something punks enjoyed because it had a lot of 'heavy metal' in it as well. I know that thrash metal has a lot of inspiration from punk and NWOBHM. I remember hearing there was/is a lot of separation between different genres of music.
I noticed that a few of them were demos. I'll have to listen to them again. Thank you :) I downloaded Witchtower's EP.
I listened to a few songs from the EDGUY's 'Rocket Ride' album and it's awesome! I like what you call "slightly cheesy melodic Euro-Metal 'widdly' window-dressing". I like Helloween, Children of Bodom (prior to 2003) and DragonForce :P.


I'll at least try to be a bit briefer this time. (yes)
Whilst there was a definite division between the Punk & Metal audiences in the late 70's and early 80's, in my experience that had more or less disappeared by the mid-80's.
I hung around with a lot of punks at the time, and they were listening to a lot of Voivod, Slayer, Metallica and Anthrax then.
Megadeth & Testament didn't seem to appeal to a lot of the punks because of the extended soloing, but the more riffy stuff went over really well.
I could never really get into the 2nd wave UK punk/crossover stuff like Discharge either, but there were some great U.S. bands in that style.
Glad you enjoyed the Edguy stuff, i think they are a lot more versatile (and far better) than a lot of the more well known bands i see them compared to in the press. Those comparisons put me off giving Edguy a proper listen for a long time.
You might also enjoy a Swedish band called Impera, they're slightly more Hard Rock based, but seeing the stuff you enjoy they may appeal to you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlOe1Gpx0Z0
Very technical players, but they nail the 'vibe' and 'groove' too, unlike many of their peers.
Glad you found the Witchtower link okay, i think they have a lot of potential. Time will tell.
User avatar
Bringer of Steel
United Kingdom (uk) Male 
Status:Offline
Rank: Bringer of Steel
Location: Ecosse
Posts: 1500

Reputation: 30676
Topics Solved: 92


riptorn wrote:I'll at least try to be a bit briefer this time. (yes)
Whilst there was a definite division between the Punk & Metal audiences in the late 70's and early 80's, in my experience that had more or less disappeared by the mid-80's.
I hung around with a lot of punks at the time, and they were listening to a lot of Voivod, Slayer, Metallica and Anthrax then.
Megadeth & Testament didn't seem to appeal to a lot of the punks because of the extended soloing, but the more riffy stuff went over really well.
I could never really get into the 2nd wave UK punk/crossover stuff like Discharge either, but there were some great U.S. bands in that style.
Glad you enjoyed the Edguy stuff, i think they are a lot more versatile (and far better) than a lot of the more well known bands i see them compared to in the press. Those comparisons put me off giving Edguy a proper listen for a long time.
You might also enjoy a Swedish band called Impera, they're slightly more Hard Rock based, but seeing the stuff you enjoy they may appeal to you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlOe1Gpx0Z0
Very technical players, but they nail the 'vibe' and 'groove' too, unlike many of their peers.
Glad you found the Witchtower link okay, i think they have a lot of potential. Time will tell.

Haha xD
That's pretty cool to know, I didn't realise that was the case. I guess with the creation of hardcore punk, punks could get into the thrash scene as it was just as angry and fast just a lot more technical. I thought punks would have gone for Megadeth over Slayer, as Slayer from their 1986 album "Reign in Blood" moved into far darker themes. I didn't get into Testament as Chuck Billy's vocals were moving into death metal vocals which I do not like. I'm not fond of but I just listened to "Alone in the Dark" and "Apocalyptic City" from their album "The Legacy" and the vocals are clear and it's pretty cool stuff. Sorry, I went a bit off topic there!
I do quite like Misfits but they were from before that second UK punk/crossover wave.
Who are Edguy compared to? I just thought they were another one of these new bands trying to copy Helloween and other power metal bands haha.
I had a listen to "Beast Within" by Impera but it's not my thing. I think it sounds a bit to new/clean for my liking. Are they listed on Metallum? I was going to see if there were any other songs by them that I could try.
I think Witchtower have the potential as well.
I purchased Ambush's "Demo EP" that Strappado suggested as their material is brilliant!
User avatar
Australia (au) Male
Status:Offline
Name: Axle
Rank: Stronger Than Evil
Posts: 170

Reputation: 3755
Topics Solved: 0


I simply can´t stand modern metal. I don´t even think it is worth to call it metal. I got introduced to 70´s and 80´s metal by my father when I was an infant, and all the time along my childhood and growing up I´ve only listened to that and other music from that era. The few new bands I like, plays the "old school" or "classical" style, without the digital production - which I got hell a lot issues with and dislikes very much - and all those unnecessary effects. Bands like Lethal Steel, Morbus Chron and Tungsten Axe.

As I mentioned I dislikes the modern, digital production a lot. I can explain more in detail what I don´t like about it. It makes the music sound plastic and lifeless, compared to the old, classic analog production which delivered a raw and natural sound. As far as I concern the digital studio techniques is just a quick-fix way to achieve the perfection, an example is that you can use "cut and paste"-techniques to make your music so tight and perfect as possible. That is what makes it so life and passionless.

In an analog studio there is no quick-fix ways to perfection, that is the big difference between the two of them. And the difference will also be revealed in the sound.

But I´m sure I shouldn´t like modern metal more even with analog production. That´s not my only issue with it. I just think it isn´t the same thing as back in the 70´s and 80´s. It´s got a new element and other influences which don´t fit my taste of music at all.
_________________________
PM me if any of my links are dead and I´ll fix it asap.
User avatar
Bringer of Steel
Sweden (se) Male  
Status:Offline
Name: Jocke
Rank: Bringer of Steel
Location: Dunwich
Posts: 119

Reputation: 5219
Topics Solved: 1


80sMetalAddict wrote:I simply can´t stand modern metal. I don´t even think it is worth to call it metal. I got introduced to 70´s and 80´s metal by my father when I was an infant, and all the time along my childhood and growing up I´ve only listened to that and other music from that era. The few new bands I like, plays the "old school" or "classical" style, without the digital production - which I got hell a lot issues with and dislikes very much - and all those unnecessary effects. Bands like Lethal Steel, Morbus Chron and Tungsten Axe.

As I mentioned I dislikes the modern, digital production a lot. I can explain more in detail what I don´t like about it. It makes the music sound plastic and lifeless, compared to the old, classic analog production which delivered a raw and natural sound. As far as I concern the digital studio techniques is just a quick-fix way to achieve the perfection, an example is that you can use "cut and paste"-techniques to make your music so tight and perfect as possible. That is what makes it so life and passionless.

In an analog studio there is no quick-fix ways to perfection, that is the big difference between the two of them. And the difference will also be revealed in the sound.

But I´m sure I shouldn´t like modern metal more even with analog production. That´s not my only issue with it. I just think it isn´t the same thing as back in the 70´s and 80´s. It´s got a new element and other influences which don´t fit my taste of music at all.

This is getting damned annoying having to rewrite my messages!

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I think digital production has a lot to blame for, in some ways it is good but in a lot of other ways, it is bad. I tried listening to Lethal Steel, Morbus Chron and Tungsten Axe but they're really not my thing.

"Wasting Light" by Foo Fighters was all recorded using analogue equipment, I haven't heard the album but it would be interesting. The other issue is that rock music is not meant to be perfect, it's meant to be raw. There is little to no soul or passion in a lot of the new recordings that I've come across. Either people expect less talent or don't care as much and listen to any old rubbish haha. So far since the 1980s, I have not come across anything that is "Oh my god, this is the best thing ever!" I think culture has a lot to do with the changes. I think 1990s Pantera had a lot to do with the influences in a lot of the new bands, I'm not a fan of 1990s Pantera.

So far the only bands formed since 1990 that have made me go "wow" that I can think of are Enforcer, ReinXeed, Northern Kings (although they've only done cover material so far) and Lost Society.
User avatar
Australia (au) Male
Status:Offline
Name: Axle
Rank: Stronger Than Evil
Posts: 170

Reputation: 3755
Topics Solved: 0


Totally agree with you both on the subject of modern production techniques.
The amount of compression used and the attendant 'volume wars' have ruined many records for me over the last decade or so.
The new Sabbath album is a good example.
Those original Sabs records had a warmth and 'vibe' to them, it was a major part of the band's sound and appeal.
I wasn't expecting much of the new Sabbath album, but after hearing a few songs in passing and being pleasantly surprised i thought i'd give it a proper listen.
After giving it a good listen, it falls short for me not because of the music, (although a few of the songs aren't that great), but because all the atmosphere has been sucked out by the big shiny production job.
A totally unneccessary production sheen drips off everything, completely nullifying the power from what could have been a most unlikely return to form.
It feels overly sanitised and unnatural to me, where a bare bones approach should have been their direction.
A real shame & an opportunity squandered.
And to go back to Edguy for a second, i'd seen them compared to Helloween a lot which put me right off them initially as i detest Helloween with a passion.
To me Helloween always traded in the least imaginative and cheesy musical cliches in Metal, it's like they were created just to irritate me.
They seemed to have a talent for taking influences from bands i liked and regurgitating them in the most obvious and bland manner imaginable.
I'm not denigrating them for their abilities as players, they're obviously technically gifted individually, but that's one band i'd be happy to never hear again.
Their popularity and longevity never cease to amaze me.
I'm well aware that this is likely not an opinion held by many visitors to this forum, but i just never understood the appeal.
Let the abuse begin. (:D)
User avatar
Bringer of Steel
United Kingdom (uk) Male 
Status:Offline
Rank: Bringer of Steel
Location: Ecosse
Posts: 1500

Reputation: 30676
Topics Solved: 92


riptorn wrote:Totally agree with you both on the subject of modern production techniques.
The amount of compression used and the attendant 'volume wars' have ruined many records for me over the last decade or so.
The new Sabbath album is a good example.
Those original Sabs records had a warmth and 'vibe' to them, it was a major part of the band's sound and appeal.
I wasn't expecting much of the new Sabbath album, but after hearing a few songs in passing and being pleasantly surprised i thought i'd give it a proper listen.
After giving it a good listen, it falls short for me not because of the music, (although a few of the songs aren't that great), but because all the atmosphere has been sucked out by the big shiny production job.
A totally unneccessary production sheen drips off everything, completely nullifying the power from what could have been a most unlikely return to form.
It feels overly sanitised and unnatural to me, where a bare bones approach should have been their direction.
A real shame & an opportunity squandered.
And to go back to Edguy for a second, i'd seen them compared to Helloween a lot which put me right off them initially as i detest Helloween with a passion.
To me Helloween always traded in the least imaginative and cheesy musical cliches in Metal, it's like they were created just to irritate me.
They seemed to have a talent for taking influences from bands i liked and regurgitating them in the most obvious and bland manner imaginable.
I'm not denigrating them for their abilities as players, they're obviously technically gifted individually, but that's one band i'd be happy to never hear again.
Their popularity and longevity never cease to amaze me.
I'm well aware that this is likely not an opinion held by many visitors to this forum, but i just never understood the appeal.
Let the abuse begin. (:D)


Is there a way to fix the volume problem in the 'volume wars'?
I love the original Black Sabbath and Dio albums! I'll have to listen to the new album but I did hear a couple of songs on iTunes just before it was released and they were streaming it. I thought they were okay but nothing great. I will give it a proper listen though.
I don't understand why they have to have clean and shiny production on heavy metal releases. I like the raw sound of those old releases. I guess bands and record companies think it sounds 'better' and they just put it out and the fans just accept it. I guess since Ozzy Osbourne has been using that modern style, he and the rest of the band decided to use it.
Hopefully the next album will prove to be better for Black Sabbath.
Haha, did you like early Helloween with Kai Hansen at least? I tried getting into their first EP "Helloween" but I just couldn't get into it.
I didn't think they were a very big band outside of Germany or Europe.
I like Helloween's stuff from when they begun until about the late 1990s, in recent years they haven't been my thing.
Haha, you're allowed to have an opinion just like everyone else. You can like who ever you want to. It's a free world! :D
User avatar
Australia (au) Male
Status:Offline
Name: Axle
Rank: Stronger Than Evil
Posts: 170

Reputation: 3755
Topics Solved: 0


Motorised wrote:Is there a way to fix the volume problem in the 'volume wars'?
I love the original Black Sabbath and Dio albums! I'll have to listen to the new album but I did hear a couple of songs on iTunes just before it was released and they were streaming it. I thought they were okay but nothing great. I will give it a proper listen though.
I don't understand why they have to have clean and shiny production on heavy metal releases. I like the raw sound of those old releases. I guess bands and record companies think it sounds 'better' and they just put it out and the fans just accept it. I guess since Ozzy Osbourne has been using that modern style, he and the rest of the band decided to use it.
Hopefully the next album will prove to be better for Black Sabbath.
Haha, did you like early Helloween with Kai Hansen at least? I tried getting into their first EP "Helloween" but I just couldn't get into it.
I didn't think they were a very big band outside of Germany or Europe.
I like Helloween's stuff from when they begun until about the late 1990s, in recent years they haven't been my thing.
Haha, you're allowed to have an opinion just like everyone else. You can like who ever you want to. It's a free world! :D


Occasionally you get 'fan fixes' for some of the worst affected records in the 'volume wars', where a fan with the right tech has a go at restoring the sound without the digital clipping. I haven't seen any around for the Sabbath album, but i recall someone fixing Metallica's 'Death Magnetic' when it came out, and listening to that version turned it from a 5 out of 10 album into a solid 7. You often see the 'fan fixes' posted on torrent sites if you use those.
As for Helloween, nah, they just never appealed to me in the slightest. I remember most of my friends going to see them in Edinburgh in '89 (where they recorded some of 'Live In The UK') and turning down a spare free ticket to go, such was my complete disdain for them.
That's probably heresy in some people's books, but i always just found them irritating.
Then Kai Hansen managed to up the ante with Gamma Ray which got on my nerves even more!
A lot of the German HM from that period grated on me for some reason, yet i really enjoyed a lot of the stuff which came out of Belgium, Holland, and Scandinavia at the same time. There were exceptions like 'Restless & Wild' era Accept, but Sinner, Rage, Running Wild etc did my head right in.
Just a question of taste i suppose, but it does strike me as odd that the German Trad Metal stuff did so little for me.
User avatar
Bringer of Steel
United Kingdom (uk) Male 
Status:Offline
Rank: Bringer of Steel
Location: Ecosse
Posts: 1500

Reputation: 30676
Topics Solved: 92


riptorn wrote:Occasionally you get 'fan fixes' for some of the worst affected records in the 'volume wars', where a fan with the right tech has a go at restoring the sound without the digital clipping. I haven't seen any around for the Sabbath album, but i recall someone fixing Metallica's 'Death Magnetic' when it came out, and listening to that version turned it from a 5 out of 10 album into a solid 7. You often see the 'fan fixes' posted on torrent sites if you use those.
As for Helloween, nah, they just never appealed to me in the slightest. I remember most of my friends going to see them in Edinburgh in '89 (where they recorded some of 'Live In The UK') and turning down a spare free ticket to go, such was my complete disdain for them.
That's probably heresy in some people's books, but i always just found them irritating.
Then Kai Hansen managed to up the ante with Gamma Ray which got on my nerves even more!
A lot of the German HM from that period grated on me for some reason, yet i really enjoyed a lot of the stuff which came out of Belgium, Holland, and Scandinavia at the same time. There were exceptions like 'Restless & Wild' era Accept, but Sinner, Rage, Running Wild etc did my head right in.
Just a question of taste i suppose, but it does strike me as odd that the German Trad Metal stuff did so little for me.


I'm guessing in time one will turn up for the new Black Sabbath albums. I don't use torrents but I'm guessing they come on to YouTube. I'll have to look for an "fan fix" of Death Magnetic as I've only heard the original version. I just don't understand the purpose of making it louder, it's just annoying that I have to adjust my speakers. Apart from Metallica's "Death Magnetic" and Black Sabbath's "13" is there any others that have been affected?
That's alright, music is very personal and everyone has their own tastes. You even gave up a free ticket? Wow! Mind you if there a free ticket for a black metal or death metal artist I wouldn't go so it's the same concept.
I don't judge what others like unless they start attacking my taste in music. There are people out there that are ignorant like those people who comment on YouTube and have arguments about petty things.
Haha, oh wow! I have never heard any Gamma Ray material so I cannot comment. I have wanted to have a listen to them along with another few hundred bands I've been meaning to listen to haha.
I love the German heavy metal. I've noticed that there are things that put people off of certain things such as a particular place (bad memory or something), something that a band member has done, lyrics, style or just the sound isn't someone's thing. I'm not too familiar with the 1970s to 2000s period of Belgium, Holland, and Scandinavia apart from the black metal scene.
I'll check out those artists that you mentioned. I have heard of Running Wild and they are awesome! Haha.
User avatar
Australia (au) Male
Status:Offline
Name: Axle
Rank: Stronger Than Evil
Posts: 170

Reputation: 3755
Topics Solved: 0


Motorised wrote:I'm guessing in time one will turn up for the new Black Sabbath albums. I don't use torrents but I'm guessing they come on to YouTube. I'll have to look for an "fan fix" of Death Magnetic as I've only heard the original version. I just don't understand the purpose of making it louder, it's just annoying that I have to adjust my speakers. Apart from Metallica's "Death Magnetic" and Black Sabbath's "13" is there any others that have been affected?
That's alright, music is very personal and everyone has their own tastes. You even gave up a free ticket? Wow! Mind you if there a free ticket for a black metal or death metal artist I wouldn't go so it's the same concept.
I don't judge what others like unless they start attacking my taste in music. There are people out there that are ignorant like those people who comment on YouTube and have arguments about petty things.
Haha, oh wow! I have never heard any Gamma Ray material so I cannot comment. I have wanted to have a listen to them along with another few hundred bands I've been meaning to listen to haha.
I love the German heavy metal. I've noticed that there are things that put people off of certain things such as a particular place (bad memory or something), something that a band member has done, lyrics, style or just the sound isn't someone's thing. I'm not too familiar with the 1970s to 2000s period of Belgium, Holland, and Scandinavia apart from the black metal scene.
I'll check out those artists that you mentioned. I have heard of Running Wild and they are awesome! Haha.


I think that the 'volume war' is something that has crept in and affected many, (or even the majority), of the albums recorded digitally over the last 5 or 10 years. As in everything, there are trends in production and mastering, and this is something which has crept in and become the thing to do to 'keep up with the Jones's.
I'm not up to speed on the fine details, but i understand that the technique causes the upper frequencies to all but disappear from the recordings. Now, not all of these frequencies are even audible to the human ear, but as part of the listening 'experience' you do feel them, and when they're gone something seems to be missing from the overall sound. It's a problem which affects digital reproduction of sound anyway, so to go out of your way to make it worse seems utterly mad to me.
But then, i've never sold a million albums, so what do i know? Lol.
Regarding the German bands of the eighties, i was thinking about this, and perhaps part of the problem (for me) was often down to the singer's pronunciations when singing in English. I sang in bands myself for years, so the vocalist is probably at the forefront in my appreciation of a band. The anunciation of the words was often just a bit 'off' to my ear, and rather than sounding 'foreign & exotic' it came off sounding a bit comical or amateurish to me. Like when 'Germany' sounds like 'Chermany' for instance.
Again, many of those bands sold shed loads of records, so what do i know? Just a matter of taste.
The Belgian scene of the 80's in particular had some great bands that never managed to break as big as their European contemporaries, like Ostrogoth (check out the 'Full Moon's Eyes' EP or the 'Ecstasy & Danger' album), Crossfire or Killer, yet to me they were far superior to many of their better known Euro-neighbours.
Geography? Bad luck? Bad timing? Who knows.
A shame though, as their music deserves to be better known.
It's a shame that some of the bands from your neck of the woods didn't make it bigger too, such as Rose Tattoo, Trilogy/Saracen, Heaven, Black Alice, Taipan, Boss etc
I wonder if geography played a big part in their failure to capitalize on their early promise.
We could certainly be doing with some bands with their talent and identity to enliven the current scene.
User avatar
Bringer of Steel
United Kingdom (uk) Male 
Status:Offline
Rank: Bringer of Steel
Location: Ecosse
Posts: 1500

Reputation: 30676
Topics Solved: 92


riptorn wrote:I'm not up to speed on the fine details, but i understand that the technique causes the upper frequencies to all but disappear from the recordings.

You're thinking of the mp3 format. The loudness war is about compressing or flattening the sound so the quieter bits are made louder, while the louder bits stay the same volume, like this:

http://docstore.mik.ua/orelly/web2/audio/figs/aud.0412.gif

The difference in volume between the loudest and quietest parts is called the dynamic range. It's mostly only in classical music that people might use no compression at all, because the changes in volume are part of the feeling of the piece. If you live next to a busy street or there's other noise around you, there can be entire parts of the music that are too quiet to hear, even if you turn it up so the loud parts are really loud. In that case it's better to use headphones.

With most music, you want some compression so the song is consistent, none of the words in the vocals are lost because they were sung too quietly, that sort of thing. However, the trend has been to compress things more and more, making the dynamic range smaller and smaller. Sounds that are well-rounded/multi-layered/etc. start to lose their character/richness/warmth/whatever-you-wanna-call-it when they're made flatter and flatter. If you listen with headphones and turn the music up to what seems like a reasonable volume, it hurts your ears because you're being blasted with a thick wall of sound.

Death Magnetic was another story entirely. They clipped/chopped off the top of the waveforms, artificially distorting the music so that the quality sounds bad. That's mostly something you'd expect to hear in an extreme genre involving digital effects (eg. harsh noise, cybergrind or lolicore)... totally ridiculous for Metallica. Luckily the Guitar Hero versions of the tracks were not affected in the same way.
User avatar
New Zealand (nz) Male YouTube  
Status:Offline
Name: Paul
Rank: Stronger Than Evil
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 119

Reputation: 352
Topics Solved: 4


Thanks for the correction and clarification Bloopy.
However it works, i find the results to be lacking in atmosphere/vibe/feel etc, and don't understand how anyone with fully functioning ears could find the results pleasing, or why it has caught on.
But then, much of modern life baffles me.
User avatar
Bringer of Steel
United Kingdom (uk) Male 
Status:Offline
Rank: Bringer of Steel
Location: Ecosse
Posts: 1500

Reputation: 30676
Topics Solved: 92


I can tell you, Heavy metal is not dead, just change a bit, sometimes. But there's a new generation trying to do the same old stuff we used to hear. Obviously, different times, different recording techniques, different record companies. I heard some interesting stuff, thanks to my nephew. He's 18, and show me the new stuff, I show him the old school.

He became fan from Tokyo Blade, Tank and Tygers of Pan Tang. And I find interesting releases of bands I didn't know:

vision divine - Vision Divine
steelheart - Tangled In Reins
sonata arctica .Reckoning Night
sinergy - Beware The Heavens
battle beast- battle beast
firewind - between heaven and hell
white wizzard - the devil's cut
lost society - fast loud death
alpha tiger - beneath the surface
katana- storms of war


These might like you, or not, but try. You can find songs of these bands in Youtube.
User avatar
Mexico (mx) Male
Status:Offline
Rank: Fear My Way
Posts: 85

Reputation: 4438
Topics Solved: 1


Oh damn, I didn’t really think about other albums that had been affected. Thank you for explaining that Bloopy, I didn’t realise it was that complex.
Haha, that is true but you would think that bands and record companies would want a better sound. More people would be inclined to buy albums if it has a full and beautiful sound.
I have picked up on that but I guess it never really bothered me. It’s a bit like Marcel Schirmer of Destruction and Tom Angelripper of Sodom. I can definitely pick up pronunciation issues which I don’t mind, also at times the vocals sound demonic so I don’t really mind as it fits haha. Apparently Klaus Meine from Scorpions has trouble with pronunciation but in the studio recordings I don’t pick it up.
Have you recorded any material, riptorn? Do Germans say 'Chermany' for Germany?
Very true, there are heaps of new bands that people love and say they are great. I have a listen and I just can’t get into them. For example, Crashdïet and Black Veil Brides.
I’ll look up those bands and releases. It’s probably a mix of all of those factors.
I have heard of some of those Australian artists, it is a pity but these things happen I guess. I think Australia gets a raw deal when it comes to music, television shows and films. The Angels is another great hard rock band that had little success outside of Australia. I don’t know how big Bengal Tigers during their time but they were freaking awesome. Of course, it would be nice for some of these bands to come back or for their influence to be utilised.

I don’t use headphones as I don’t want to damage my hearing. “However it works, i find the results to be lacking in atmosphere/vibe/feel etc” I feel exactly the same for some particular records. Some I have not picked up on it.
I am young and I agree with you “But then, much of modern life baffles me.”

Heavy metal isn't dead but the sound wars has affected it in a major way. The rawness is missing. A band called "Ambush" released a demo tape this year and it's awesome! It's raw and metal should be.
I’m glad that other young people are getting into NWOBHM. It’s such a brilliant era.

I’ll have to look up those artists and songs. I know of Lost Society but not that particular song. I have their debut album. Thank you for the suggestions!
User avatar
Australia (au) Male
Status:Offline
Name: Axle
Rank: Stronger Than Evil
Posts: 170

Reputation: 3755
Topics Solved: 0


I've been listening to some new material.

These are incredible:
Lord Volture
Attic - the vocals are amazing! It reminds me a bit of Jim Gillette; high pitched.
Evil Invaders - Wow!
Screamer
Striker
Hell - I've only heard one song (The Age Of Nefarious) and they're pure legends.
Gama Bomb
White Wizzard
Black Majesty
Bullet (2013 band) - even though I'm not too fond of Brian Johnson's period of AC/DC it sounds like his style. I haven't really given AC/DC a chance after Bon Scott passed over.
ReinXeed
Ambush
Lost Society
PelleK
Enforcer

New to me and are just amazing:
Pretty Maids
Stryper
Persian Risk
Toxik

Interesting but I haven't heard enough to judge:
Vanderbuyst
Skull Fist
Battle Beast
Freedom Call
Wintersun - damn! Beyond the Dark Sun sounds like the Hatebreeder era of Children of Bodom. I guess I like it because they took influences from NWOBHM.
Orden Ogan
Korpiklaani
Helker
Iron Mask
Orden Ogan
Almah
Tren Loco
Skiltron
Adrián Barilari

I'm not sure about:
Lordi ("Devil Is A Loser" is an awesome song)

Thank you mikkel_odeon for suggesting these artists. I only listened to one song so it's biased due to that:

I liked:
Battle Beast
Firewind
White Wizzard
Lost Society
Alpha Tiger
Katana

It was okay:
Vision Divine

I’m unsure if I liked these:
Steelheart
Sonata Arctica
Sinergy
User avatar
Australia (au) Male
Status:Offline
Name: Axle
Rank: Stronger Than Evil
Posts: 170

Reputation: 3755
Topics Solved: 0


« Return to General Metal Discussions



Related Topics  Author   Replies   Views 
related Metal Horde Zine from Portugal - Issue 15 out and issue 16 on the making (scheduled to be out in Dec'14)

WhoAmI

0

564

related Does anyone on here listen to mostly modern metal?

Matthias Steel

54

3551

related Bengal Tigers (Aus) - Metal Fetish [EP] (1982) [S&M and Heavy Metal Records Issue]

jasonkont

3

1274

related [REQS] Decibel Of Death - Issue 1 (1986) and issue 7 (1987)

vaalkoth

1

603

related Power Metal - Vol. 3 Issue 10 (Aug 1989) [US Zine]

vaalkoth

0

1319

related [SOLVED] [NEED RE-UP] Power Metal - Vol. 3 Issue 10 (Aug 1989) [US 'zine]

OldNecromancer

1

385

related Vow Wow (Jpn) - Beat Of Metal Motion (1984) (Re-issue 2006)

Horex

0

542


« Previous topic | Next topic »

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest